IJN对抗德梅因的架空设计----富士级

chaimeng32

架空：二战在45年前尚未爆发，美国的德梅因级重巡洋舰将要入役。为了对抗8英寸机关炮的威胁，IJN提出在伊吹之后的新一代重巡计划。
目的一：对抗德梅因级；目的二：护卫机动舰队。
要求一：火力压制德梅因级；要求二：六座以上98式10公厘高炮；要求三：航速33节；要求四：在标准作战距离上能防御美国8英寸超重蛋。要求五：要求尽量控制成本。
火力方案一：203/55三联装炮塔四座，新炮，射速6发/分。
火力方案二：203/55双联装炮塔五座，新炮，射速6发/分。
火力方案三：254/50三联装炮塔三座，新炮，射速4发/分。
火力方案四：356/45双联装炮塔三座，旧炮翻新，射速2发/分。
由于203/55需新设计，而且射速远不能和MK16相比，虽然方案一和二火炮数量都多一些，但被认为还是不能压制德梅因。254/50同样被认为时间上赶不上，而且一套新的弹药装备成本太高。而由于扶桑级和伊势级四舰和金刚四舰陆续退役，而它们的14寸主炮还能够满足要求，最重要的是成本低。但14寸炮还是经过了部分改进，主要是减轻重量和提高射速。
主炮确定后，以3座主炮塔前二后一为基础按最小排水量来设计。
定案：
主尺度：全长：212米，全幅：25米，满载吃水：8米，标准排水量：19000吨，满载排水量22000吨。
动力：同利根型，四机八炉，152000马力，最大航速33节，航程10000海里/18节。
火力：356/45双联主炮3座，每门炮备蛋100发，100/65双联高炮6座，三联25MM机关炮12座，无雷装。
雷达：21型一部，22型两部，13型两部。
水上机：弹射器一部，水上机3架。
装甲：水线170MM倾斜15度，水平90MM，主炮塔200MM。
布局：高干舷平甲板布置，上层建筑类似最上，水上机及弹射器布置在舰尾，六座100高炮中两座布置在前主炮后和后主炮前，其他四座布置在两舷。
建造：首舰在横须贺，2号在吴，3号在神户，4号在长崎分别在44年开工，45年底下水，第二批4艘开工，47年第三批开工，一共12艘。
由于富士级的开发，造价更大的超甲巡案中止。

Leon

成本肯定是完爆德梅恩的

owaii

55倍203炮无需重新设计

3年式20厘米炮除了1号和2号，还有个3号，就是55倍的203炮，当初准备给高雄级和妙高级的一艘（记得是羽黑）换装的。1931年试制完成，试验结果良好。后来因为预算紧张等原因，1933年计划终止。

chaimeng32

Leon 发表于 2012-12-6 23:51
成本肯定是完爆德梅恩的

主炮是现成的，动力装置也与利根一样，应该是比较廉价的方案，轻巡阿贺野也是捡的旧炮。

owaii

考虑国产化了的一式24cm加农炮如何？

owaii

chaimeng32 发表于 2012-12-6 23:56
主炮是现成的，动力装置也与利根一样，应该是比较廉价的方案，轻巡阿贺野也是捡的旧炮。 ...

还不如直接搞超甲巡。数量少点也没关系。

chaimeng32

owaii 发表于 2012-12-6 23:53
55倍203炮无需重新设计

3年式20厘米炮除了1号和2号，还有个3号，就是55倍的203炮，当初准备给高雄级和妙高 ...

受教了，356双联炮塔600多吨重，装上3座可行吗？

chaimeng32

owaii 发表于 2012-12-6 23:57
考虑国产化了的一式24cm加农炮如何？

不了解此炮，愿闻其详

Leon

owaii 发表于 2012-12-6 23:58
还不如直接搞超甲巡。数量少点也没关系。

超甲巡完全是看到美帝有了阿拉斯加然后就一定要弄个对应的出来，就是搞出来成本那么高鬼子舍得装备吗？有着钱还不如造几条战列舰，全世界也就是美帝有钱搞这个。

chaimeng32

owaii 发表于 2012-12-6 23:58
还不如直接搞超甲巡。数量少点也没关系。

条约后重巡的大型化是趋势，而超甲巡从阿拉斯加的例子看应该会成本很高，不足以替换到寿的甲巡。

owaii

chaimeng32 发表于 2012-12-6 23:58
受教了，356双联炮塔600多吨重，装上3座可行吗？

装三座可行。其实你可以看看http://www.warships.com.cn/thread-3559-1-2.html里面的设计，然后斟酌修改一下。

一式24厘米炮是法国士乃德造九〇式24厘米列车炮的仿制版——不过是陆军炮。海军要想弄来恐怕要费点事。不过性能是很不错的。54倍身管，弹重，初速1050，射程50120
作为海军炮的话，可以修改一下，加大弹重，减小初速和射程，提高威力。

owaii

考虑长管203也可以啊。

seven_nana

首先日本方面如何能精确得知8‘/55 mk16的射速？

其次即便知道了，那时再选炮，再造舰，服役时间要大大推迟

比较靠谱的炮还是203/55，比较靠谱的建造方案也是沿着日系重巡的路走下去

lse

45年的时候旧的富士号战舰仍未退役
新重巡如何叫富士级

动感炮神

lse 发表于 2012-12-7 01:49
45年的时候旧的富士号战舰仍未退役
新重巡如何叫富士级

新巡入役，旧船改名。

动感炮神

新炮TYPE 0

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1950

Displacement:
        20,795 t light; 22,000 t standard; 25,478 t normal; 28,261 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
        (688.97 ft / 662.73 ft) x 85.30 ft x (32.86 / 35.40 ft)
        (210.00 m / 202.00 m) x 26.00 m  x (10.02 / 10.79 m)

Armament:
      6 - 12.20" / 310 mm 50.0 cal guns - 1,236.79lbs / 561.00kg shells, 100 per gun
          Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1950 Model
          3 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
                1 raised mount - superfiring
      12 - 5.91" / 150 mm 48.0 cal guns - 99.87lbs / 45.30kg shells, 400 per gun
          Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1950 Model
          6 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 12.13lbs / 5.50kg shells, 300 per gun
          Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1950 Model
          8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
                8 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 8,716 lbs / 3,954 kg
      Main Torpedoes
      6 - 17.7" / 450 mm, 18.04 ft / 5.50 m torpedoes - 1.000 t each, 5.998 t total
        In 2 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes
      2nd Torpedoes
      12 - 17.7" / 450 mm, 18.04 ft / 5.50 m torpedoes - 1.000 t each, 11.995 t total
        In 2 sets of deck mounted reloads

Armour:
   - Belts:                Width (max)        Length (avg)                Height (avg)
        Main:        11.0" / 280 mm        442.91 ft / 135.00 m        15.75 ft / 4.80 m
        Ends:        3.15" / 80 mm        196.85 ft / 60.00 m                        13.78 ft / 4.20 m
          22.97 ft / 7.00 m Unarmoured ends
        Upper:        5.91" / 150 mm        442.91 ft / 135.00 m        7.87 ft / 2.40 m
          Main Belt covers 103% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead - Strengthened structural bulkheads:
                3.94" / 100 mm        492.13 ft / 150.00 m        36.09 ft / 11.00 m
        Beam between torpedo bulkheads 85.30 ft / 26.00 m

   - Gun armour:        Face (max)        Other gunhouse (avg)        Barbette/hoist (max)
        Main:        13.0" / 330 mm        8.27" / 210 mm                11.0" / 280 mm
        2nd:        4.72" / 120 mm        1.97" / 50 mm                1.97" / 50 mm

   - Protected deck - single deck:
        For and Aft decks: 2.83" / 72 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 11.02" / 280 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
        Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
        Geared drive, 4 shafts, 111,000 shp / 82,806 Kw = 31.05 kts
        Range 15,000nm at 16.00 kts
        Bunker at max displacement = 6,262 tons

Complement:
        1,007 - 1,310

Cost:
        £14.358 million / $57.430 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
        Armament: 1,746 tons, 6.9%
           - Guns: 1,719 tons, 6.7%
           - Weapons: 27 tons, 0.1%
        Armour: 10,374 tons, 40.7%
           - Belts: 4,411 tons, 17.3%
           - Torpedo bulkhead: 2,587 tons, 10.2%
           - Armament: 1,502 tons, 5.9%
           - Armour Deck: 1,669 tons, 6.5%
           - Conning Tower: 206 tons, 0.8%
        Machinery: 2,656 tons, 10.4%
        Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,920 tons, 23.2%
        Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,683 tons, 18.4%
        Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0.4%
           - Hull above water: 50 tons
           - On freeboard deck: 50 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
        Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
          37,310 lbs / 16,923 Kg = 41.0 x 12.2 " / 310 mm shells or 10.0 torpedoes
        Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.00
        Metacentric height 4.0 ft / 1.2 m
        Roll period: 18.0 seconds
        Steadiness        - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
                        - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.72
        Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
        Hull has a flush deck,
          a straight bulbous bow and large transom stern
        Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.480 / 0.494
        Length to Beam Ratio: 7.77 : 1
        'Natural speed' for length: 30.08 kts
        Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
        Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
        Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 40.00 degrees
        Stern overhang: 3.12 ft / 0.95 m
        Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
                                Fore end,         Aft end
           - Forecastle:        19.00%,  27.56 ft / 8.40 m,  21.00 ft / 6.40 m
           - Forward deck:        30.00%,  21.00 ft / 6.40 m,  18.37 ft / 5.60 m
           - Aft deck:        36.00%,  18.37 ft / 5.60 m,  18.37 ft / 5.60 m
           - Quarter deck:        15.00%,  18.37 ft / 5.60 m,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m
           - Average freeboard:                19.86 ft / 6.05 m
        Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
        Space        - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 61.9%
                - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 134.5%
        Waterplane Area: 38,455 Square feet or 3,573 Square metres
        Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 112%
        Structure weight / hull surface area: 162 lbs/sq ft or 793 Kg/sq metre
        Hull strength (Relative):
                - Cross-sectional: 0.94
                - Longitudinal: 1.68
                - Overall: 1.00
        Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
        Excellent accommodation and workspace room
        Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

45年款少许加大吨位。我懒得改了。

风之旋律

日本海军的重巡的作战任务是夜战突破米国海军前卫部队，为雷击舰队创造雷击窗口。
所以说吗，要想啃开米国海军前卫部队，那么压力巨大，因为45年不止是什么德梅因，这都是次要的东西，米国海军前卫舰队很可能是一艘衣阿华搭配2-3艘阿拉斯加的阵型。
所以日本海军建造什么重巡，对战局影响不大，反倒是日本海军除了建造B-65超甲巡以外，还需要建造超超甲巡！而超超甲巡必须具备和衣阿华对战的能力。至少装备8门16寸以上口径的主炮，并且有完备的指挥系统！而速度至少超过32节！

mohicans

不用大廢周章, 建造金剛級改良型即可

动感炮神

风之旋律 发表于 2012-12-7 11:10
日本海军的重巡的作战任务是夜战突破米国海军前卫部队，为雷击舰队创造雷击窗口。
所以说吗，要想啃开米国 ...

先来超甲巡。
Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1950

Displacement:
        31,557 t light; 33,253 t standard; 37,626 t normal; 41,126 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
        (836.63 ft / 807.09 ft) x 101.71 ft x (32.09 / 34.24 ft)
        (255.01 m / 246.00 m) x 31.00 m  x (9.78 / 10.44 m)

Armament:
      10 - 12.20" / 310 mm 50.0 cal guns - 1,236.79lbs / 561.00kg shells, 100 per gun
          Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1950 Model
          5 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
                2 raised mounts - superfiring
      16 - 3.94" / 100.0 mm 65.0 cal guns - 33.84lbs / 15.35kg shells, 500 per gun
          Auto rapid fire guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1950 Model
          8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      24 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.53lbs / 0.24kg shells, 15,000 per gun
          Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1950 Model
          8 x Triple mounts on sides, evenly spread
                8 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 12,922 lbs / 5,861 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:                Width (max)        Length (avg)                Height (avg)
        Main:        11.0" / 280 mm        574.15 ft / 175.00 m        16.40 ft / 5.00 m
        Ends:        3.15" / 80 mm        229.66 ft / 70.00 m        13.78 ft / 4.20 m
          3.28 ft / 1.00 m Unarmoured ends
        Upper:        5.91" / 150 mm        574.15 ft / 175.00 m        7.22 ft / 2.20 m
          Main Belt covers 109% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead - Strengthened structural bulkheads:
                4.33" / 110 mm        492.13 ft / 150.00 m        37.73 ft / 11.50 m
        Beam between torpedo bulkheads 101.71 ft / 31.00 m

   - Gun armour:        Face (max)        Other gunhouse (avg)        Barbette/hoist (max)
        Main:        13.0" / 330 mm        9.45" / 240 mm                11.0" / 280 mm
        2nd:        3.94" / 100 mm        1.97" / 50 mm                3.94" / 100 mm

   - Protected deck - single deck:
        For and Aft decks: 3.94" / 100 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 11.02" / 280 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
        Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
        Geared drive, 4 shafts, 155,000 shp / 115,630 Kw = 32.22 kts
        Range 15,000nm at 16.00 kts
        Bunker at max displacement = 7,873 tons

Complement:
        1,350 - 1,756

Cost:
        £21.100 million / $84.401 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
        Armament: 2,554 tons, 6.8%
           - Guns: 2,554 tons, 6.8%
        Armour: 15,129 tons, 40.2%
           - Belts: 5,690 tons, 15.1%
           - Torpedo bulkhead: 2,975 tons, 7.9%
           - Armament: 2,632 tons, 7.0%
           - Armour Deck: 3,564 tons, 9.5%
           - Conning Tower: 267 tons, 0.7%
        Machinery: 3,708 tons, 9.9%
        Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,066 tons, 26.8%
        Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6,070 tons, 16.1%
        Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0.3%
           - Hull above water: 50 tons
           - On freeboard deck: 50 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
        Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
          59,360 lbs / 26,925 Kg = 65.3 x 12.2 " / 310 mm shells or 12.3 torpedoes
        Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.01
        Metacentric height 5.2 ft / 1.6 m
        Roll period: 18.7 seconds
        Steadiness        - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 79 %
                        - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.65
        Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.08

Hull form characteristics:
        Hull has a flush deck,
          a straight bulbous bow and large transom stern
        Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.500 / 0.512
        Length to Beam Ratio: 7.94 : 1
        'Natural speed' for length: 33.04 kts
        Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
        Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 73
        Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 40.00 degrees
        Stern overhang: 3.12 ft / 0.95 m
        Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
                                Fore end,         Aft end
           - Forecastle:        16.50%,  31.50 ft / 9.60 m,  24.61 ft / 7.50 m
           - Forward deck:        30.00%,  24.61 ft / 7.50 m,  19.03 ft / 5.80 m
           - Aft deck:        40.50%,  19.03 ft / 5.80 m,  19.03 ft / 5.80 m
           - Quarter deck:        13.00%,  19.03 ft / 5.80 m,  21.00 ft / 6.40 m
           - Average freeboard:                21.37 ft / 6.51 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
        Space        - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 59.6%
                - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 162.2%
        Waterplane Area: 56,875 Square feet or 5,284 Square metres
        Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 114%
        Structure weight / hull surface area: 182 lbs/sq ft or 887 Kg/sq metre
        Hull strength (Relative):
                - Cross-sectional: 0.98
                - Longitudinal: 1.20
                - Overall: 1.00
        Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
        Excellent accommodation and workspace room
        Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

动感炮神

风之旋律 发表于 2012-12-7 11:10
日本海军的重巡的作战任务是夜战突破米国海军前卫部队，为雷击舰队创造雷击窗口。
所以说吗，要想啃开米国 ...

再来十三号

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1950

Displacement:
        57,539 t light; 61,239 t standard; 67,525 t normal; 72,554 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
        (974.76 ft / 944.88 ft) x 127.30 ft x (37.07 / 39.13 ft)
        (297.11 m / 288.00 m) x 38.80 m  x (11.30 / 11.93 m)

Armament:
      8 - 18.11" / 460 mm 50.0 cal guns - 3,009.31lbs / 1,365.00kg shells, 150 per gun
          Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1950 Model
          4 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
                2 raised mounts - superfiring
      12 - 5.51" / 140 mm 50.0 cal guns - 83.78lbs / 38.00kg shells, 400 per gun
          Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1950 Model
          6 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      16 - 3.94" / 100.0 mm 65.0 cal guns - 33.83lbs / 15.35kg shells, 400 per gun
          Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1950 Model
          8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
                8 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 25,621 lbs / 11,622 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:                Width (max)        Length (avg)                Height (avg)
        Main:        12.4" / 315 mm        682.41 ft / 208.00 m        17.06 ft / 5.20 m
        Ends:        3.15" / 80 mm        262.47 ft / 80.00 m        17.06 ft / 5.20 m
        Upper:        5.91" / 150 mm        682.41 ft / 208.00 m        8.53 ft / 2.60 m
          Main Belt covers 111% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead - Strengthened structural bulkheads:
                5.91" / 150 mm        787.40 ft / 240.00 m        45.28 ft / 13.80 m
        Beam between torpedo bulkheads 127.30 ft / 38.80 m

   - Gun armour:        Face (max)        Other gunhouse (avg)        Barbette/hoist (max)
        Main:        16.1" / 410 mm        9.45" / 240 mm                15.0" / 380 mm
        2nd:        3.94" / 100 mm        1.97" / 50 mm                3.94" / 100 mm
        3rd:        3.94" / 100 mm        1.97" / 50 mm                      -

   - Protected deck - multiple decks:
        For and Aft decks: 6.69" / 170 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 14.96" / 380 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
        Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
        Geared drive, 4 shafts, 220,000 shp / 164,120 Kw = 32.39 kts
        Range 15,000nm at 16.00 kts
        Bunker at max displacement = 11,315 tons

Complement:
        2,093 - 2,722

Cost:
        £43.330 million / $173.322 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
        Armament: 5,658 tons, 8.4%
           - Guns: 5,658 tons, 8.4%
        Armour: 29,982 tons, 44.4%
           - Belts: 7,990 tons, 11.8%
           - Torpedo bulkhead: 7,790 tons, 11.5%
           - Armament: 4,958 tons, 7.3%
           - Armour Deck: 8,710 tons, 12.9%
           - Conning Tower: 534 tons, 0.8%
        Machinery: 5,263 tons, 7.8%
        Hull, fittings & equipment: 16,535 tons, 24.5%
        Fuel, ammunition & stores: 9,986 tons, 14.8%
        Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0.1%
           - Hull above water: 50 tons
           - On freeboard deck: 50 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
        Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
          93,687 lbs / 42,496 Kg = 31.5 x 18.1 " / 460 mm shells or 22.4 torpedoes
        Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.02
        Metacentric height 7.5 ft / 2.3 m
        Roll period: 19.5 seconds
        Steadiness        - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 73 %
                        - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.58
        Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.03

Hull form characteristics:
        Hull has a flush deck,
          a ram bow and large transom stern
        Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.530 / 0.540
        Length to Beam Ratio: 7.42 : 1
        'Natural speed' for length: 35.82 kts
        Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
        Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 71
        Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 40.00 degrees
        Stern overhang: 3.44 ft / 1.05 m
        Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
                                Fore end,         Aft end
           - Forecastle:        20.00%,  31.50 ft / 9.60 m,  23.62 ft / 7.20 m
           - Forward deck:        30.00%,  23.62 ft / 7.20 m,  20.34 ft / 6.20 m
           - Aft deck:        35.00%,  20.34 ft / 6.20 m,  20.34 ft / 6.20 m
           - Quarter deck:        15.00%,  20.34 ft / 6.20 m,  21.00 ft / 6.40 m
           - Average freeboard:                22.17 ft / 6.76 m
        Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
        Space        - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 64.3%
                - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 164.6%
        Waterplane Area: 85,735 Square feet or 7,965 Square metres
        Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 100%
        Structure weight / hull surface area: 238 lbs/sq ft or 1,162 Kg/sq metre
        Hull strength (Relative):
                - Cross-sectional: 1.00
                - Longitudinal: 1.05
                - Overall: 1.00
        Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
        Excellent accommodation and workspace room
        Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform



使用50L460轻弹的版本.

细节出入，自行脑补。