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楼主: seven_nana

大型化的驱逐舰与小型化的巡洋舰 - 设计与用途的探讨

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列兵

九年服役纪念章

发表于 2016-3-3 20:02 | 显示全部楼层
在此冒昧的问两个个问题,意大利的2级佣兵队长级轻巡洋舰是按执行侦查任务,击毁敌方的侦查舰为主要的要求设计的,那么从莱蒙多.蒙特库克利级开始的意大利轻巡洋舰还有这方面的要求吗?
另外意大利的其他普通驱逐舰,以士兵级为代表的那些,其与以航海家级为代表的侦查舰之间有是么样的关系?是不是类似于法国的舰队型雷击舰和反雷击舰呢?

上士

九年服役纪念章

发表于 2016-3-3 22:07 | 显示全部楼层
铁甲驴骑兵 发表于 2016-3-3 18:19
我倒是注意到在Nelson to Vanguard巡洋舰一章的1944轻巡方案里,在论证了8门5.25寸并不差的对海能力,和相 ...

用前卫炮塔有更好的RPC和美国Mk37火控,效能确实会好一些,但NW显示射速只有9轮/分,比英国自己的4.5寸和美国的5寸还是差不少的

列兵

九年服役纪念章

发表于 2016-3-3 23:02 | 显示全部楼层
Claret 发表于 2016-3-3 22:07
用前卫炮塔有更好的RPC和美国Mk37火控,效能确实会好一些,但NW显示射速只有9轮/分,比英国自己的4.5寸和 ...

设计人员预计在重新设计的炮塔内,达到12发/分射速的8门5.25效力相当于12门4.5,那么即使是9发/分的5.25也是和4.5旗鼓相当的吧,尤其是在战争后期VT信管配置后长射程直弹道的优点相当突出

上尉

十二年服役纪念章旗手

发表于 2016-3-4 10:10 | 显示全部楼层
seven_nana 发表于 2016-3-3 18:44
现在看来,单从设计角度说的话,皇军的驱逐舰生存力可能是比较差的

德国法国那些块头大,侧面的油舱都完 ...

以前福田启二的一些资料,九千岁也贴过一些,对驱逐舰的船体破坏冲击波2.5kg每平方毫米就够了,另外蝗国的HT和NVNC的等效系数在0.66附近,也就是说蝗国驱逐舰的舰体外板材料系数比STS起码低1/3,蝗国巡洋舰被500磅通常弹10m内近炸的效果都可以撕破隔舱,造成锅炉仓进水,驱逐舰要是被10m距离近失一下估计轻则大破减速,重则沉船啊

一等兵

八年服役纪念章

发表于 2016-3-4 19:31 | 显示全部楼层
seven_nana 发表于 2016-3-2 15:50
关于驱逐舰的生存性,老佛爷是这么说的(U.S. Destroyers, Friedman, P.186):除非被直接击中动力设备中 ...

请教7爷一个问题:既然不能直击动力系统中的主要设备,驱逐舰不怕单发大口径炮弹。那么对付驱逐舰,高投射量比大口径更高效吗?(比如说战列舰5寸副炮比6寸更高效,轻巡对付驱逐舰比重巡更高效)

中将

十一年服役纪念章TIME TRAVELER钻石金双剑金橡叶铁十字勋章四次金星勋章荣誉勋章维多利亚十字勋章行政立法委骑士团勋章海武魂旗手终身荣誉会员

 楼主| 发表于 2016-3-4 20:03 | 显示全部楼层
sjzjyamato 发表于 2016-3-4 19:31
请教7爷一个问题:既然不能直击动力系统中的主要设备,驱逐舰不怕单发大口径炮弹。那么对付驱逐舰,高投 ...

高投射量可能确实比大口径有效,有6/47机关炮的轻巡肯定比重巡有效。

一等兵

八年服役纪念章

发表于 2016-3-4 20:12 | 显示全部楼层
seven_nana 发表于 2016-3-4 20:03
高投射量可能确实比大口径有效,有6/47机关炮的轻巡肯定比重巡有效。

谢谢7爷指点

上士

十二年服役纪念章旗手

发表于 2016-3-5 20:17 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 history 于 2016-3-5 20:20 编辑

看了,不仅让人感叹,武器技术发展的飞快,战舰系统集成进化的缓慢,战争时间的短暂。假如海上连续百年的炮战,各型战舰必是能如同恐龙那般,在各种功能类别上异化到极致的。比如:
一级炮战舰、二级炮战舰……、N级炮战舰
一级雷击舰、二级雷击舰……、N级雷击舰
一级防空舰、一级防空舰……、N级防空舰
然后在实战中还会不断出现各种以雷制炮,以炮制雷的桥段
盈缩之期,不但在天。
养怡之福,可得永年。

列兵

七年服役纪念章

发表于 2016-3-6 23:19 来自手机 | 显示全部楼层
seven_nana 发表于 2016-3-2 15:50
关于驱逐舰的生存性,老佛爷是这么说的(U.S. Destroyers, Friedman, P.186):除非被直接击中动力设备中 ...

那么共鞍的CA在面对死亡冲锋的DD时最好是用主炮上高爆糊脸好呢还是组织高炮平射好呢(有射速优势)
求解

列兵

八年服役纪念章

发表于 2016-3-7 15:34 来自手机 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 zljsnowtiger 于 2016-3-7 15:37 编辑
Mark7的炮闩 发表于 2016-3-6 23:19
那么共鞍的CA在面对死亡冲锋的DD时最好是用主炮上高爆糊脸好呢还是组织高炮平射好呢(有射速优势)
求解 ...


要我说最好的反驱逐舰巡洋舰是高雄的动力,吨位加两千,六根10英寸管子
打驱逐舰用高装药比的轻he,发射药也可以考虑减量,低初速节省身管寿命,同时也可以兼顾岸轰
打带甲目标用强装药重ap

列兵

八年服役纪念章

发表于 2016-3-8 20:02 | 显示全部楼层
看完七爷这篇洋洋洒洒的科普贴,一直以来的一些因为知识水平不足带来的误区得到了纠正,设计思想的发展过程也得到了廓清,十分感谢七爷的科普
看到美国海军和英国海军对于高平炮的认识,虽然我这样的小白没有资格给人家打马后炮,不过还是想斗胆感慨一下:富于预见性和适应战场环境的武器设计思想,才能让优秀的武器有用武之地啊

上士

九年服役纪念章

发表于 2016-3-8 22:31 | 显示全部楼层
zljsnowtiger 发表于 2016-3-7 15:34
要我说最好的反驱逐舰巡洋舰是高雄的动力,吨位加两千,六根10英寸管子
打驱逐舰用高装药比的轻he,发射 ...

10寸怎么反驱逐,8寸射速都太慢,6门10寸投射量也不够

列兵

八年服役纪念章

发表于 2016-3-9 12:02 | 显示全部楼层
七爷本小白想请教一个问题
贴吧讨论中以为ID为buttership的前辈认为法国的新学派没有被打脸,认为意大利海军既然被封锁于地中海是既成事实,意大利又没有广袤的海外殖民地,不如走新学派的路线搞空潜快
而西洋前辈(应该是论坛版主黎塞留?)认为鱼雷出现以后,皇家海军逐渐认为近岸封锁被证伪了,敌舰队将拥有出击主动权
当然跑到七爷面前复读是可笑的,并没有这个意思
而看航海家级和佣兵长级,其雷击能力可以说是相对贫弱的,当然意大利人设计的初衷是侦察舰不是雷击舰
不过以马后炮的角度看,这样的驱逐舰对于意大利海军这样一支出门就要面对法国海军和技术储备,战术运用,战略思想在二战前夕都堪称世界第一的皇家海军,是否是合适的?
意大利驱逐舰是否应该放弃部分炮击能力换取更为强大的雷击能力呢?

中将

十一年服役纪念章TIME TRAVELER钻石金双剑金橡叶铁十字勋章四次金星勋章荣誉勋章维多利亚十字勋章行政立法委骑士团勋章海武魂旗手终身荣誉会员

 楼主| 发表于 2016-3-10 00:01 | 显示全部楼层
583984586 发表于 2016-3-9 12:02
七爷本小白想请教一个问题
贴吧讨论中以为ID为buttership的前辈认为法国的新学派没有被打脸,认为意大利海 ...

意大利海军无论从装备上还是心理上都没有做好跟英国人打仗的准备,其在间战时期的主要潜在对手一直是法国人。

间战时期英国和美国驱逐舰是很重雷装的,那个时期的英国驱逐舰绝大部分都是8管21英寸鱼雷,相比之下法意两国的鱼雷数量相对都少一些,法国驱逐舰普遍是6或7管550mm鱼雷,意大利则普遍是6管21英寸鱼雷。

下士

十二年服役纪念章

发表于 2016-3-11 09:13 | 显示全部楼层
好棒!

中将

十二年服役纪念章TIME TRAVELER银星勋章荣誉勋章元老荣誉纪念章行政立法委终身荣誉会员

发表于 2016-3-14 16:12 | 显示全部楼层
在驱逐舰对抗中,超驱的战斗力优势还是非常明显的。

下面是1941年6月英国驱逐舰在叙利亚海岸与法国超驱交战的案例。英军占据兵力优势,但法国超驱的炮术占据明显的优势,依靠远程炮火打败了作战经验丰富的英军。


The French division had returned to Sidon when, at 1325, Guépard sighted destroyer masts to the southwest.11 These belonged to Janus. Jackal followed about a mile off her starboard quarter and Hotspur a mile behind Jackal. Isis was operating inshore two miles south of Hotspur. Tothill sighted the French as they turned west at 1329. Under his rules of engagement the British commander could not fire first. Nonetheless, he rang up full speed and headed toward the intruders, without closing up his formation. Tothill was an experienced captain on a veteran ship that had fought off Norway and in surface actions against the Italians, including the Battle of Matapan. He anticipated there would be time to concentrate while the French closed range.12 (See table 8.1.)

Table 8.1Engagement off Sidon, 9 June 1941, 1335–1445

Conditions: Fair weather with brisk wind and small chop, good visibility
British ships—
(Commander J. A. W. Tothill): DD: JanusD4 (F), JackalD1, Isis, Hotspur
French ships—
3rd Scout Division (Captain Raymond Gervais de Lafond): DL: GuépardD1 (F), Valmy

De Lafond surprised Tothill, however, when his ships loosed their first salvo from sixteen thousand yards. Guépard judged that her rounds, marked by green splashes, fell four hundred yards under, while the Valmy’s red-dyed shells fell six hundred yards over. Both destroyers were on for deflection, and their second broadsides straddled. Nonetheless, Janus continued to close, while Jackal steamed to fall in astern and Hotspur remained farther back. Janus replied at 1335 from fifteen thousand yards. One of Valmy’s men later recalled, “The slender silhouettes of [the enemy] ships . . . were illuminated by momentary flashes, six here, four there. With greater anxiety than after our own salvos we mentally counted the time. Sharp cracking sounds, white geysers; they were far away. The enemy opened very short.”13 (See map 8.1, inset.)

The French, now shooting five rounds a minute, pressed west, while the straggling British line assumed a parallel heading. Then, at 1343, with the range at ten thousand yards, Guépard struck Janus three times. One shell blew a hole in the aft deck; another exploded outside the captain’s sea cabin, killing everyone on the bridge except Tothill; and the third slammed into no. 1 boiler room, slaughtering crewmen and destroying the saturated-steam line. With steam escaping and no. 2 boiler out of action, Janus drifted to a stop. Then two more shells piled in, one of which exploded in no. 1 boiler room. Rolling on the swell, Janus dropped smoke floats and worked her guns under local control. Guépard, [url=]steaming west at twenty-two knots, projected a torpedo toward this target, at an estimated range of nine thousand yards.[/url]


At this juncture Jackal overhauled Janus and wrapped smoke around her stricken sister. Jackal then turned to port and at 1350 sent three torpedoes churning on a long run north. Hotspur remained out of effective range.

At 1354 the French ships ceased fire and simultaneously turned east. A few minutes later de Lafond sighted Isis speeding north to join the fight and, with the odds once again out of balance, and with half of his precious supply of ammunition already expended, the French captain turned north.


[/url][url=]Jackal followed at full speed, zigzagging to present a difficult target. Hotspur came next, twenty-five hundred yards astern, while Isis trailed well off Hotspur’s starboard quarter. Jackal’s dogged perseverance impressed her enemy. “That bloodhound—Jackal—clung to us . . . shooting with perfect precision and regularity her six-fold salvos.”[/url]14 At 1414 the French altered course to the northeast, straight for Beirut, still twenty miles distant, and started to lay black funnel and white chemical smoke. However, this provided little concealment. With Jackal following thirteen thousand yards behind, de Lafond ordered his gunners to back her off with concentrated salvos. Shortly thereafter a 5.45-inch shell exploded on Jackal’s upper deck, igniting a small blaze in the tiller flat (that is, the steering machinery room, over the rudder) and wounding one man. The French ceased fire at 1420 and increased speed to twenty-four knots.

At 1421 Jackal’s gunfire finally told: a shell rattled into Guépard’s crew quarters. This did little damage, but a few yards one way or the other would have been a different story. The French emitted more smoke and increased speed to thirty knots. However, the smoke failed to conceal, so at 1433 de Lafond turned again and flung a few salvos at Jackal before resuming course for Beirut. This maneuver succeeded in opening the range, and Jackal broke off the chase at 1446. She had expended 611 4.7-inch rounds. In addition to being hit once, Guépard had suffered minor splinter damage.


Kimberly towed Janus to Haifa, where she burned out of control until 0500 the next day. The Admiralty concluded that Tothill should have kept his force concentrated, though it conceded that the French “produced long range gunnery of an accuracy considerably above our destroyer standard.” In fact, it was even more impressive in light of the limitations of the French weapons.15



「置酒上方,烽火未熄,望风樯战舰,在烟霭间,慨然尽醉。」

列兵

九年服役纪念章

发表于 2016-3-14 22:48 | 显示全部楼层
那么是不是可以说,兼顾雷击与炮战的泛用型驱逐舰才是驱逐舰发展的必然终点?
我觉得在间战时代主力舰队决战背景下,同时建造使用专门雷击的雷击型驱逐舰和专门炮战的炮战型驱逐舰也不失为一种解决矛盾的方案。

中将

十二年服役纪念章杰出服役十字勋章全球架空纪念章旗手

发表于 2016-3-15 21:56 | 显示全部楼层
中②之煉金術師 发表于 2016-3-14 22:48
那么是不是可以说,兼顾雷击与炮战的泛用型驱逐舰才是驱逐舰发展的必然终点?
我觉得在间战时代主力舰队决 ...

如何定义“必然”,又如何定义“终点”

波特级好像挺符合你这个“必然终点”的概念的,然而波特级并没派上什么用场

禁止访问

发表于 2016-3-16 15:29 | 显示全部楼层
大型化驱逐舰不等同于超级驱逐舰,大型化的驱逐舰起源不止于意大利,也不尽都是侦查用途,可以分别由一战前英国,意大利的侦察舰,俄国的诺瓦克分别写起

禁止访问

发表于 2016-3-16 15:35 | 显示全部楼层
还是分开写大型化驱逐舰和小型化巡洋舰的好
驱逐舰就美国,日本,俄国,德国,英国,法国,意大利是主
二战前大型化的极致就是美国,英国,法国,意大利各一型的超级驱逐舰(三座以上主炮不含三座,意大利的航海家算特例,有7门的)

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