惊爆！南达被雾岛击中6发356mm弹！

mathewwu

R. Lundgren去年在NAVWEAPS的TECHNICAL BOARD开出自己的专栏，把他过去7年对瓜岛海战的研究成果发布出来，在雾岛战损分析一文中将当时日方所自认的9枚与美方所估计的8枚16“命中弹一举提高到20枚。Lundgren最近又发表了他对这次海战中南达被命中的356mm弹的论文，总计是6枚，而非过去的1，2或3枚。其中Hit 2（第2发命中弹，以下同）及Hit 11是榴弹，Hit 15是3式对空烧夷弹，Hit 21,23,26是穿甲弹。Lundgren的论文引用的多半是日美两国的官方报告及对当事人的访谈，重要出处都有加注。他甚至获得水下考古学着巴拉德博士（泰坦尼克-俾斯麦-约克城-雾岛等沉船的探测者）的支持使用对雾岛的探测影片资料。NAVWEAPS论坛也有讨论，可一并了解。以下是Lundgren最新中弹分析报告与当年舰艇局损害报告的对照图。至于文章内容就要看那位大德肯行行好了。也顺便谢谢ssvcrtfi老大告知我这件BB党人的大事。

这是Lundgren的新命中弹分析图：


这是1944.6.美海军官方的南达战损分析图，只有命中编号第26被认定为356mm弹：


命中编号第26击中3号炮塔座圈留下的弹痕：


命中编号第26洞穿座圈旁主甲板留下的10x7英尺开口：

呆头雁

14寸砲打不動南達

飘扬的Z字旗

这人还真是有意思，不过他那篇雾岛的文章我倒是看过，颇有些不以为然...

缅因

飘扬 发表于 2010-10-19 04:57
这人还真是有意思，不过他那篇雾岛的文章我倒是看过，颇有些不以为然...

作为日粉你当然压力很大:lol

御用文人

毛啊，SD果然是沾着“祖传的小霉运”？

蛟兮蜃兮

南胖胖还是欺负人了．．．

飘扬的Z字旗

他这个南达的，包括之前雾岛的那篇，很多新提出的主炮命中记录其实大多都是一些之前认定为8寸弹或副炮弹的命中。这就有些指鹿为马的感觉了，因为14寸炮弹的毁伤能力和8寸弹根本不是一个等级的，有点经验的内行应该一眼就能看出来。所以相比之下我还是更倾向于相信战后公布的那份官方损害报告。毕竟这份报告是在第一手资料的基础上搞出来的，附有大量现场照片为证。而这个爆料大王的说法，即使考证再充分也只是借助一些回忆和记述之类资料搞出来的“事后考证”而已，凭这个就想推翻技术部门的损害报告是不合适的。
另外，那篇雾岛的考证也存在一些疑问。最简单的就是，雾岛的残骸是整个倒扣在海底的，而且舰体前半段已经因弹库爆炸化成了碎片，那么此君对于雾岛前部舰体和上层建筑的中弹情况是如何得知的？此战之后日本方面提出的16寸命中数字是9发（也有其他一些说法，但从来没有听说20发的），烟鬼李自己估计的是8发。双方记录数字的差距很小，还是能够反映实际情况的。那么好了，烟鬼李自己是美国海军著名的炮术专家，日本海军也不是炮术白痴，那么如果真的有20发那么多，难道说在场的美日双方炮术人员都是会打不会数的白痴？把16寸的命中当成5寸命中，日本人也太迟钝了吧....所以这两份考证我个人认为都很值得商榷，与我本人是日派还是什么派无关。

mathewwu

Lundgren在雾岛战损分析一文开篇已指出，命中9发的说法来自战后美军对雾岛助理枪炮长Tokuno Horishi中佐的审问纪录，而20发的说法则是雾岛损管长Shiro Hayashi中佐的战损纪录图，转交Tsurukichi Ikeda中佐刊行在战后所出版的shikikan-tachi no Taiheiyo-Senso一书中所披露的。所以都是雾岛当晚作战军官的证词，只不过Lundgren采取后者的说法。我只想知道能不能发掘出池田中佐这本书，看看到底是怎么说的，毕竟这才是20发的一手材料。网友对雾岛战损分析的评论可以参考多炮塔神殿这两个链接：
http://craftsman.qq.topzj.com/vi ... ighlight=%2Bkimking http://craftsman.qq.topzj.com/vi ... ighlight=%2Bkimking

Type94

日方对于雾岛的损害描述如下：さすが新锐戦舰の40cm炮の威力は壮绝を极めた、戦闘开始後わ  
　　　　ずか７分にして９発が雾岛に命中した。瞬时にして後部の２炮塔  
　　　　は破壊され、舰桥大被害を与え、さらにその一弾が舵取机室を破  
　　　　壊してしまった?#65310;Aいて炸裂する12.5cm炮弾に、舰上は大火灾と  
　　　　なり、戦舰雾岛は左に旋回を続けて戦列から脱落してしまった。  
　　　　人力操舵に切り替えて戦列复帰に努めたが、舰内の被害も甚大で  
　　　　パイプ破损、蒸気喷出で机関部员のほとんどが戦死して机関停止  
　　　　舰は停止した。舰长は総员退舰を命じ、キングストン弁を开き、  
　　　　0130（15日午前１时30分）戦舰「雾岛」サボ岛西方11マイルの地  
　　　　点に沈んでいった。司令长官近藤は舰を集めて北方に退いた。  
　　　　　この激戦で日本军は雾岛と駆逐舰绫波を、米军は駆逐舰ウォー  
　　　　ク、プレストン、ベーナムを失った。

Type94

马修武先生，不妨引用下您在多炮塔那里写的东西：作者指出，关于第二次瓜岛海战中雾岛号动态的信息和文章，主要来自于USSBS 对姓Horishi 的曰本海军军官的询问。在这个报告中，Horishi 认为雾岛被命中9发406mm和40发127mm 炮弹，并且是自沉的（这也是大多数中文战史资料的介绍和中国同好耳熟能详的内容，可见其影响力）。Horishi 对于主炮炮弹命中的估计与当时编队司令，威利斯?李海军少将的估计是一致的，威利斯?李估计是8发并且记载在他的战斗报告中。曰本海军指挥官一般在战斗后有一个简略报告，一个月后递交详细战报，可是，雾岛的详细战报目前无法找到，可能是灭失于1945年火攻东京的轰炸中。

目前，本篇文章最重要的证据来自于Hayashi， 他是雾岛号的主要损管军官，他在雾岛号沉没前，画下了被命中部位的草图，Ikeda是Hayashi的好朋友，Ikeda 在弃舰前，仔细地复制了Hayashi的图，并且战后发表在曰本的一本书里。Ikeda 指出，雾岛号被命中20发主炮炮弹和17发副炮炮弹，而且雾岛号是沉没而非自沉。

1992年，罗伯特?巴拉德博士发现了雾岛号的残骸，它倾覆躺在海底泥沙中，前半部分被严重摧毁，巴拉德博士允许作者看了全部的雾岛号残骸的水下录像，这些水下录像显示的命中部位，与Ikeda的纪录相符，可惜巴拉德博士没有录下整个残骸的影像。

文章第一部分叙述了美国军方的档案和调查。华盛顿号在01：00 ，距离8，400码，进行了持续2分39秒的密集开火，发射了39发406mm，然后进行了1分30秒的错误检测，接着进行了2分40秒的第二轮炮击，总共发射了75发主炮炮弹和107发127mm副炮炮弹。第一轮炮击后，观测到雾岛仍有三座主炮可以开火，第二轮炮击后，观测到雾岛仅四号主炮还在射击。华盛顿号的报告中记载了多次的近失弹，但是没有炮弹命中后的爆炸被火控系统雷达所纪录，原因不明。笔者认为可能是在这么近距离，雾岛号的雷达信号太强烈以至于火控雷达没有敏感到可以分辨出命中。这意味着华盛顿号的命中估计是基于它可以观察到的，而不是基于火控雷达纪录的爆炸。

Horishi的命中40发127 mm的估计，对比107发127mm的发射数量（不全部对准雾岛号），命中率达到几乎不可能的62%， 而且这些副炮炮弹都由第一副炮群5门副炮发射，但华盛顿却有9门主炮炮击雾岛，副炮在这个距离的下落角度为20度，主炮炮弹为7度，一般说，炮弹的弹道越平直，命中率越高，所以，Horishi的估计，令人难以置信。

第二部分叙述了曰本海军的官方记载，雾岛号的战斗报告认为，南达科他是一艘北卡罗来纳级战列舰，而华盛顿号被辨认为一艘新墨西哥级战列舰（令人昏倒的辨识！），雾岛沉默于03：25分，69名军官和1，031个船员被两艘驱逐舰救起（这么多人生还，竟然到现在没有真相，昏倒！）。

战后，有三名军官详细地给出了雾岛号最后时间的叙述，Kobayashi 是雾岛号的供需军官，他当时和他的指挥官们站在舰桥上，Yoshino 是主要的进水损管军官，Ikeda是副炮群指挥官而且是Horishi 的上司。Kobayashi估计雾岛号被命中20发主炮炮弹，也指出雾岛号是倾斜无法控制而倾覆沉没。

Ikeda的图显示20发主炮和17发副炮炮弹命中，为什么与华盛顿号的估计差别如此大？一是水下命中弹没有被观察到，二是有些命中太靠近，而且时间间隔太接近，被计算为一次命中。

第三部分关于具体的406mm命中部位的分析和图示：

命中1，命中上层建筑，编号 2，3，4，5 命中副炮区，6，7 水线下，7 部分被水下录像， 6命中中部，造成最严重的进水损害，7击中淡水箱，防止弹片进入锅炉舱，轮机舱运行直到大火从通风道蔓延来。第四次齐射，8，9命中一号炮塔，几乎同时。一号炮塔损伤严重，舰长下令注水，8命中炮座，10击中居住区，12，13，14击中军官居住区，过道。 15部分地被水下录像拍到，击中水线下，导致舵机舱进水，16被完整拍摄，击中水线下，破坏了液压室，导致主炮塔三，四号无法运行。第一轮齐射后，据华盛顿号的观测，有三个主炮炮塔仍然在开火，所以命中二号炮塔的第17，18发，击中二号主炮，是在第二轮中，19击中液压室，20击中左舷舵机。

Type94

为什么沉没？水下命中弹6和另外的穿透主装甲带的7，破坏了水密性。装甲设计是1914年的思想，没有考虑水下命中弹问题。

到目前为止，没有发现任何真实证据显示舰长下达凿沉雾岛的命令，而且，舰长已经命令两艘驱逐舰靠在雾岛边上，接走舰员，所以，在这种状况下，凿沉军舰的命令，将会使两艘驱逐舰和自己的舰员处于危险中。当雾岛突然向右倾覆沉没时，甲板上还有300多人，他们都被突然抛入海中，舰长幸存，二战中，曰本没有任何其它的主力舰的凿沉，是在这种情况下的，所以，作者认为，雾岛不是自沉的。

为什么威利斯?李仅仅观察到8次主炮命中，因为炮弹命中的爆炸很难计算，不少命中弹之间的散步太小，时间上的间隔也很小，造成把多发命中计算为单发命中，同时，6，7，11，15，16，19，20都是水下命中弹，被当成是近失弹。

1. 根据华盛顿号的战斗报告：虽然第一阶段主炮射击时MK3及SG都有侦测到主炮弹溅落点，第二阶段炮击雾岛时虽然经过火控雷达操作员的努力尝试；但完全没有测到溅落点，原因不明。

笔者Lundgren认为可能是在这么近距离，雾岛号的雷达信号太强烈，而雷达感度被切换到低档所以测不出来，其实是原始战斗报告的推论。
2. 根据华盛顿号的战斗报告：第二阶段主炮开火后发射照明弹照亮主目标。。。主指挥仪的弹着观测员被照花了眼以至有两轮齐射无法观察落弹。。。不过即使没有照明弹对射击也没有影响，因为在这事之前之后主炮炮弹都照样有击中目标。

所以战场情况的确无法完整记录弹着效果，不仅雷达没能做到，光学/目视也受干扰。

3. 因此，在战斗报告的结尾，华盛顿号的舰长要求：从（在夜间）分清敌我以及分辨数量有困难上指出，在舰上装备红外光(infra-red)摄影器材是有需要的。
华盛顿有第一副炮群5门副炮（对雾岛）发射可能是没看贴切。华盛顿的右舷5座双联127mm副炮炮座Mount从前到后编号1,3,5,7,9（又称51,53...）, 副炮指挥仪S.B. Director 1在首楼，Director 3在右舷，Director 4在尾楼，一座副炮指挥仪控管的副炮群内炮座数量不一定，视任务视界与射界而定。

根据战报，在海战的第二阶段，一开始是由Director 4控管9号炮座向主炮目标（雾岛）发射照明弹，Director 1控管1,3炮座构成第一副炮群Group 1对主炮目标射击，Director 3控管5,7炮座构成第三副炮群Group 3对探照南达的目标射击。当Director 3控管的目标探照灯熄灭后，他转而指挥射击另一亮起探照灯的目标直到灯熄灭，然后又再度转向指挥射击另一亮起探照灯的目标，这个目标的灯光熄灭时间与本舰停火令下达的时间几乎同时。

9号炮座的1或2门炮只对雾岛发射无害的照明弹，所以持续以防空-通用弹(AA Common)射击雾岛的127mm副炮只有1,3炮座的4门炮，而5,7炮座的4门炮射击的三个亮灯的目标中很可能只有最后或甚至没有一个是雾岛。

Type94

而如果要进一步细节了解瓜岛海战南达到底如何，美国海军的两个网站有很大帮助：http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/ ... canal-3.html#phase3

这个是美国海军的舰船损害统计的：http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/rep/WDR/index.html

Type94

倒是雾岛，如果以当地时间午夜，日本时间十点整，开始向南达科他射击，而恰好也基本就在此时开灯暴露导致华盛顿的反击，那么之后短短7分钟内，该舰失去了战斗力，尤其是主炮塔在近距离打击下迅速损毁，那么其具体发射的主炮弹数量就可能十分有限，过去记录的发射117发主炮弹，包括穿甲弹27发，通常弹68发，其他为烧夷弹，而发射顺序是烧夷弹，通常弹，穿甲弹。那么即使雾岛的射速超过了预定设计水准，尤其是考虑到在华盛顿的炮击中自身火力不断削弱。所以个人看来，雾岛发射的炮弹总数应当远在117发以下，参考下比睿在前一次海战中很长时间内才发射不足60发，可以想象，雾岛的战斗详报如果没有被找到，那么可能情况还得深入调查，因此我个人觉得117发不可能

mathewwu

Type94 发表于 2010-10-23 10:52
马修武先生，不妨引用下您在多炮塔那里写的东西：作者指出，关于第二次瓜岛海战中雾岛号动态的信息和文章， ...

10楼转贴的这篇东西不是我写的，是kimking写的。

11楼上半部也是kimking写的，下半1.2.3点才是我回复的。

我开帖的最大愿望是能找到池田中佐那本书，雾岛和南达到底被主炮击中几发目前不是我最关心的。

飘扬的Z字旗

回复 mathewwu 的帖子

是不是光人社再版的那本？吉田中佐写的？

Type94

这里倒是有一份英文的：EXTRACTS FROM USS SOUTH DAKOTA NEWSLETTER, APRIL 2009)

I am writing in an attempt to reach a person involved with the USS South Dakota to see if they would be interested in the research I have been doing on the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal over the past 6 years. What this research shows is that many of the details on the battle especially when it comes to the shell damage she took is incorrect. Instead of the normally reported one 14-inch shell hit on turret three South Dakota actually received six 14-inch shell hits. Much of the data is from Japanese reports and I have broken the battle down to one minute intervals. I know which Japanese ships were firing at her and when.

I have Kirishima’s damage reports and she was actually hit 20 times by the Washington. I have viewed the film of her wreck shot by Bob Ballard and though they did not film the entire wreck what they did film confirms 4 hits in the exact location the Japanese officers said they would be.

Atago confirms two 5-inch shell hits to her from South Dakota. One was defeated by her side armor and one hit on the bow which destroyed a soy sauce locker. I know why the torpedoes missed this night and how her camouflage paint pattern played an important role in confusing the Japanese.

I can not confirm if South Dakota hit   Ayanami. Most   likely USS Gwin and USS Preston did the most damage as her documents closely match these ship’s reports. Her wreck is cut in half from a scuttling torpedo from Uranami. She is sunk to her waterline aft of this and the bow section lies on its starboard side. From what is visible and what remains only 5-inch shell damage is visible. This does not mean all 16-inch hits can be ruled out. She may have taken a 16-inch shell below the waterline and this damage is buried in the mud. This is very possible as her engine rooms were destroyed and the 5-inch shells fired this night from all US ships had nose fuzes which would have detonated on contact with the water. But with this area of her wreck buried in the mud I can not confirm this actually happened.

The 14-inch shell which hit turret three was definitely a 14-inch AP shell and I can prove this. This is the only time in US history that a US battleship took a hit from an enemy battleships armor piercing shells and in this case the US armor held.

Kirishima was loaded initially with type 3 incendiary shells for the bombardment. She actually opened fire at 0052 long before the cruisers and hit South Dakota on her first salvo. Two 6-inch and one 14-inch shells ripped through radar plot and started a huge fire within the compartment. I can show or prove this as well. To the Japanese especially Admiral Kondo this damage looked like the foremast had been blown off. Up to now the Japanese had been winning the battle. Kondo had received reports of one US cruiser sunk, one destroyer sunk, and one destroyer aflame. His initial estimate was two heavy cruisers and four destroyers. To him South Dakota is the last US warship and is heavily damaged. He is not aware of Washington and the Japanese lacked radar. When South Dakota received the damage to radar plot her main battery went silent and this also gave the impression to Kondo that she was severely damaged. It was at this point he turns is bombardment unit towards South Dakota to finish her off and the entire battle will shift from a US defeat to a US victory.

Type94

Once Kondo in the cruiser Atago turns on their searchlights he becomes aware he is pitted against US battleships. Washington opens fire on Kirishima immediately and hits her with her second salvo. The paint scheme of South Dakota confuses the Japanese and they can not tell if she is dead in the water, moving away, or moving towards them. They decide she is dead in the water when in reality she is moving towards them. At the last second they realize their error but it is too late. Washington’s paint scheme also makes her look like she is sinking by the bow which is one reason the Japanese over estimate the damage they inflicted on the US navy this night.

South Dakota’s secondary fire rains down on Atago and she quickly withdraws north in an attempt to keep herself between the two US battleships and their convoy. Kirishima fired into South Dakota and hit her with two more 14-inch HC shells which blew large holes in her outer hull. Another 14-inch type 3 shell ripped through her directors 2 and 3 and her stack. A near miss sent the cap head of a 14-inch shell causing a huge dent in her side and the shell may have detonated along her side opening seams below the waterline farther forward. In all Kirishima contributed about 50% of the 27 hits scored from either her main or secondary battery. The BuShips report on her damage is virtually worthless.

Once South Dakota had been shot up Captain Gatch decided to withdraw his ship. By using as much Japanese and US documentation I have pieced together exactly what happened this night so if you are interested I think her crew should know and her story should be told accurately. Please understand also this battle’s place in US history. This is the true turning point in the war, not Midway. This battle actually seals Japan’s fate to defeat and Admiral Yamamoto’s will to continue fighting for Guadalcanal is broken. The strategic impact of these events is huge. The crew’s of the US ships were very green and had never worked together before so as expected they made some errors due to a lack of experience. Thank you and please let me know if you are interested,
Robert Lundgren

I have been doing research on this battle for about 6 years now. 90% of the documentation comes from primary source material or documents written at the time. The US documents were pulled from the National Archives and the Japanese documents were pulled also from our National Archives and the Naval Historical Center in Washington DC. I live in Maryland so I have access to these documents rather easily. Originally with two partners we started out researching what happened aboard Kirishima. Has we gathered information it became apparent that the US and Japanese versions of events were similar but not the same. I must take exception with your use of JAPS. While in 1942 they were the enemy they were a profession navy and their reports of events are actually more detailed than US reports.

The principle detail changes really come to the damage South Dakota took that was recorded by BuShips in 1947 six months after South Dakota was decommissioned. In 1947 the Navy was downsizing as men left the service. This report had very low priority within the Navy because battleships were no longer expected to remain in service. They only used 7 sources of material and only one very inaccurate interview with a single Japanese officer. The result was a report that is not worth the paper it was written on. However today this report because it was written by BuShips is taken as gospel and thus her story is being miss-represented.

Type94

I took the descriptions of the damage reports from South Dakota’s action report and the photos to men who work at NAVSEA who are ballistic experts. Nathan Okun and Bill Jurens are the premiere men in this field and know more about WWII ammunition, armor, and their capabilities then any men I know. BuShips report is so contradictory if you would allow me to show you it becomes obvious how bad this report is. The Japanese reports give me the times they opened fire and what ammunition they were firing. It is far easier to determine what kind of shells were hitting South Dakota when you know which guns and which ammunition they were firing and when. When it is pieced together both sides support each other in amazing detail so I have been able to reconstruct events down to one minute intervals. The physical damage on South Dakota proves that the Japanese reports are accurate but because the BuShips report is so bad the true events for South Dakota’s ordeal has not been recorded properly.

I was just hoping to contact someone who may be interested that had contact with the crew. I thought they may like to see it and decide for themselves. However I realize most people are comfortable with the facts they think they know. Since I have spoken to Dr. Bob Ballard and Charles Haberlien who found the wrecks of Kirishima and Ayanami in 1992 I have seen all the photos taken of the wrecks. These photos also prove the Japanese reports accuracy concerning the damage they took. If you wish to see these films they are located at the Naval Historical Center and Charles Haberlien is in control of them.  

mathewwu

飘扬 发表于 2010-10-24 09:52
回复 mathewwu 的帖子

是不是光人社再版的那本？吉田中佐写的？

Ikeda是池田还是吉田？ 光人社再版的那本的书名是？

mathewwu

回复 Type94 的帖子

谢谢Type94，这篇我已见过，就是我在旧贴上说的给南达之友会的书信。