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庆祝晋升士官,特发米日主力舰散布界数据!

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少将

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 楼主| 发表于 2011-7-8 15:55 | 显示全部楼层
找到一条关于黎塞留的记录

Richelieu had delay coils for the center guns of each turret fitted in 1947-1948 when a tighter dispersion pattern was desired in order to take the maximum advantage of radar fire control. During tests at Mers el-Kebir in May 1948, the measured average dispersion at 26,500 meters (29,000 yards) was 525 meters (575 yards) without the firing delay and 300 meters (330 yards) with a 0.060 second firing delay
(at this time the guns had all fired more than 200 shells without refit)
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发表于 2011-7-8 16:09 | 显示全部楼层
飘扬 发表于 2011-7-8 15:43
英美海军在二战时的射击法叫做 Straddle and Ladder,测距射阶段以连续的交互射为主,追求射击的连续性。对 ...

可惜日美战列舰缺乏互射资料
CA级别的8寸互射来看日本要准得多,但是命中率还是非常低
感觉一条CA的1000多发备弹不足以在20000码距离上击沉另一条CA

少将

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 楼主| 发表于 2011-7-8 16:34 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 飘扬 于 2011-7-8 16:35 编辑

炮术上还有一个概念叫做“Error in the Mean Point of Impact”,简称MPI。日本海军称其为“指挥误差”,意思是指散布界中心与目标点之间的距离与射程之比。试射不断修正的实际上就是上一轮射击的MPI。首轮射击的MPI大小主要取决于射击指挥装置的测角精度和测距精度。

以长门级上装备的10米测距仪为例,2万米平均测距误差285米,3万米平均测距误差650米。昭和15年度日本各主力舰的MPI值如下:

长门  472m/30800m   (1.532%)
陆奥  141m/30840m   (0.457%)
伊势  134m/27070m   (0.495%)
山城  409m/27380m   (1.493%)
金刚  169m/31070m   (0.543%)
榛名  193m/31330m   (0.416%)

平均为0.822%。
米国主力舰1941年的平均MPI大约为1.6%,1945年使用火控雷达后缩小到0.75%左右。
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发表于 2011-7-8 17:54 | 显示全部楼层
谢谢飘扬,也就是说主教单纯说火炮精度的话还是不错的呗。

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发表于 2011-7-8 19:16 | 显示全部楼层
回复 飘扬 的帖子

科罗拉多7弹的2.2%已经比我想象的要好,因为演习是动对动打拖靶,同向平行前进,时速不超过15节。

少将

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十二年服役纪念章元老荣誉纪念章旗手终身荣誉会员

 楼主| 发表于 2011-7-8 19:59 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 飘扬 于 2011-7-8 20:01 编辑

回复 mathewwu 的帖子

可是30000米距离6炮齐射的左右散布超过300米,也实在是太恶心点了。一般来说,相同条件下齐射散布界的大小是和开火火炮的数量成正比的,参与齐射的火炮数量较少时散布界也应该相应有所缩小。如此之大的方向散布应该还是与前向射击和高速追击有关。
(我不是说衣阿华超过23节就不能开火,而是想问衣阿华级会不会为减小散布而尽可能避免在高速状态下射击?毕竟事实证明对野分的炮击是失败的)
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发表于 2011-7-8 20:26 | 显示全部楼层
回复 飘扬 的帖子

你确定是纽舰的散布?我没这资料,还以为300米是9炮的。纽舰只用前6炮没错,依舰可是9炮,要不然5次齐射打不出40发来。

又衣阿华级减速换散布的看法恕我没有能力回答。但如果速度能使距离不致拉开,不是没有机会干掉野分。如我在另帖所言空观对野分的避弹战术已有充分认知,如果能协同两舰采取rocking ladder左右包抄,野分不管朝哪一方向机动都有可能闯进散布界内,剩下只是时间与弹药存量问题。

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发表于 2011-7-8 20:54 | 显示全部楼层
new舰在对野风有6炮齐射过吗?

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 楼主| 发表于 2011-7-8 21:07 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 飘扬 于 2011-7-8 21:08 编辑

回复 mathewwu 的帖子

衣阿华的3座主炮塔全部参与了射击,这点我还真没有注意到。如果是9炮全齐射的话,300-350米的方向散布似乎也是可以接受的
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发表于 2011-7-8 21:35 | 显示全部楼层
回复 ssvcrtfi79 的帖子

纽泽西7次齐射打出18发,还真不好说有几次是6炮齐射。难道又是高速时舰艏上浪,1#炮塔不能发射?

呼唤飘扬兄,你的300-350米散布界有可能是3炮的远近散布了。。。

少将

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十二年服役纪念章元老荣誉纪念章旗手终身荣誉会员

 楼主| 发表于 2011-7-8 21:46 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 飘扬 于 2011-7-8 21:49 编辑

回复 mathewwu 的帖子

恐怕就是因为搞不清楚这个300-350米的散布界到底是几炮齐射的,所以才会对这个数据的性质存在争议...

17楼日方记录的就是一次3炮齐射的弹着情况。
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发表于 2011-7-8 22:07 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 ssvcrtfi79 于 2011-7-8 22:11 编辑
mathewwu 发表于 2011-7-8 21:35
回复 ssvcrtfi79 的帖子

纽泽西7次齐射打出18发,还真不好说有几次是6炮齐射。难道又是高速时舰艏上浪,1# ...


三炮还算多哦

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发表于 2011-7-8 22:17 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 ssvcrtfi79 于 2011-7-8 22:26 编辑

另外有资料说衣阿华在特鲁克一战中指挥仪和炮塔有视差,回来后才调整
其实不管对香取、还是野风都是一笔烂账

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发表于 2011-7-8 22:18 | 显示全部楼层
回复 ssvcrtfi79 的帖子

哈,ssv兄果然拿得出好货,一锤定音。

少将

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十二年服役纪念章元老荣誉纪念章旗手终身荣誉会员

 楼主| 发表于 2011-7-8 22:39 | 显示全部楼层
回复 ssvcrtfi79 的帖子

2号炮塔的右炮竟然一炮未放...
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发表于 2011-7-8 22:43 | 显示全部楼层
mathewwu 发表于 2011-7-8 22:18
回复 ssvcrtfi79 的帖子

哈,ssv兄果然拿得出好货,一锤定音。

m版客气了,新泽西是1.2炮塔交替射的,而衣阿华是8炮齐射打了5次

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发表于 2011-7-8 22:52 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 mathewwu 于 2011-7-8 23:00 编辑
ssvcrtfi79 发表于 2011-7-8 22:43
m版客气了,新泽西是1.2炮塔交替射的,而衣阿华是8炮齐射打了5次


那就请SSV大兄送佛送上天,把依舰的射击纪录也贴出来吧,我想推论是不是1#炮塔的R炮从未开火。

(打错了,是3#号的右炮)

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发表于 2011-7-8 23:21 | 显示全部楼层
mathewwu 发表于 2011-7-8 22:52
那就请SSV大兄送佛送上天,把依舰的射击纪录也贴出来吧,我想推论是不是1#炮塔的R炮从未开火。 ...

New Jersey and Iowa subsequently turned their attention to destroyer Nowaki, which began to flee when she sighted the American task group approaching. In order to stop Nowaki, New Jersey was given permission to open fire with her main battery at 32,200 yards. Three minutes later Iowa opened fire at a range of 35,700 yards, expending eighteen rounds of H.C., alternating between Turrets I and II in seven two and three-gun salvos. Iowa was more aggressive and used her entire battery expending forty rounds in five eight-gun salvos.
New Jersey's fire during this phase was poorer than Iowa's, undoubtedly due to her use of three-gun salvos in alternating groups from cold guns. Further, her Mark 8 operator chose to use the slow speed scan function for ranging and spotting, along with optics for deflection spotting. Table 2 shows how New Jersey's spots from one group were applied to the next.
An aircraft from USS Bunker Hill spotted for New Jersey on the first three salvos. New Jersey's action report speculates that spotting was discontinued because Iowa was also firing at this time. This Table 3
seems unlikely as Iowa opened fire about the time of New Jersey's third salvo.83 Nowaki altered course to port by about 20° between New Jersey's first and second salvo, which made it difficult to establish the proper deflection. Some time after New Jersey's fourth (and Iowa's first) salvo landed, Nowaki came left another 25° and subsequently escaped.
Iowa's better performance probably stems from her decision to utilize the full battery and from having her guns already warmed up from the previous firing at Katori. From the first salvo, which was a straddle, Iowa's overall battery performance was apparently better as is seen in Table 3.
Nowaki was in the midst of altering course to the left during the second and third salvos. By the time the fourth salvo fell, both of Iowa's optical spotters and her radar had lost the track on the target and the fifth salvo was fired on generated course and speed. Iowa's salvos were more consistent and were closer overall than New Jersey's, exhibiting smaller MPI errors. This performance was even more impressive when one considers that the Iowa's Mark 8 rangekeeper lacked the cams required to shoot high capacity projectiles using service velocity charges, forcing her to rely on a correction to the armor piercing range table.
Although this engagement represented more of a live practice shoot than a difficult combat test, New Jersey and Iowa did a credible job against Nowaki, which presented a difficult gunnery problem. Although New Jersey might have profited from better use of her main battery, all indications suggest her gunnery personnel performed acceptably. This action provided Iowa with the distinction of firing the longest ranged salvo at another ship at sea and also scoring the longest ranged straddle against another ship at sea as well.

我就不扫描了,直接打出来,不知道有没有打错字的  
m版自己看吧 一些个原因这里面也写得得很清楚了。主要还是两舰射击落点混在一起,mk8雷达选择的扫描模式,还有就是用穿甲弹射表修正高爆弹等等
下面是表三,表二是上面那张图
Iowa's spots on Nowaki
Salvo        Spot
1        No Change, No Change
2        Up 200. L3
3        Up 100, L2
4        No Observation
5        No Observation

至于散步界得数据这东西真没啥意思的

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发表于 2011-7-8 23:51 | 显示全部楼层
回复 ssvcrtfi79 的帖子

多谢了。不好意思让SSV大兄费心,散布界还是许多BB党经常挂在口边的东西呢。

少将

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十二年服役纪念章元老荣誉纪念章旗手终身荣誉会员

 楼主| 发表于 2011-7-9 00:05 | 显示全部楼层
从修正值上看,新泽西的MPI误差比衣阿华大了不少,应该也和2、3炮齐射的散布界小有关。也就是38楼原文中的Iowa's better performance probably stems from her decision to utilize the full battery,我觉得这点应该是主要的原因。
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