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楼主: akagizuo

一战时代建造的战列舰是不是水下防护异常薄弱?

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少将

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十二年服役纪念章元老荣誉纪念章旗手终身荣誉会员

发表于 2011-8-22 16:49 | 显示全部楼层
回复 克虏伯火炮 的帖子

97式爆药是不含铝粉的,38L怪我没说清楚,60%TNT(有时也用TNA)+24%HND+16%铝粉的这种炸药是实验型号,代号“甲药”,只知道成品的颜色是墨绿色,但没有制式采用,燃点熔点感度爆速等等详细性能一概不明。
無敵の巨砲 雷と吼え

中将

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发表于 2011-8-22 16:53 | 显示全部楼层
回复 飘扬 的帖子

受教了,多谢。
但这么说的话,95式潜艇鱼雷的威力还真不比英国潜艇鱼雷的威力大,后者有的型号装330千克托佩克斯。

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十二年服役纪念章一级铁十字勋章元老荣誉纪念章终身荣誉会员

发表于 2011-8-22 21:46 | 显示全部楼层
科京同志 发表于 2011-8-22 07:28
回复 巴掌 的帖子

你明白你在说什么吗?

抗超压本来就是硬抗最有利,理论上一个刚性系统只要能抗一次超压也能抗一万次。只是一般军舰的结构强度达不到,才退求其次使用一次性的TDS。

但是如果主装甲带下檐有足够强的横向支撑物,主装甲带就可以硬抗鱼雷爆炸的水超压,自身变形微乎其微。

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十二年服役纪念章

发表于 2011-8-23 07:38 | 显示全部楼层
巴掌 发表于 2011-8-22 21:46
抗超压本来就是硬抗最有利,理论上一个刚性系统只要能抗一次超压也能抗一万次。只是一般军舰的结构强度达 ...

你这不是就瞎扯吗?  哪个军舰的刚度能够达到坦克一样的水平  对水下爆炸可以做到硬抗  不是一般军舰达不到  是所有的军舰都达不到

你是宣称是主任建筑工程师 你可以算一下  要达到你设想的主装甲带硬抗的防御效果  结构的刚度和强度要达到多么不可能实现的水平

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十二年服役纪念章

发表于 2011-8-23 07:45 | 显示全部楼层
巴掌 发表于 2011-8-22 21:46
抗超压本来就是硬抗最有利,理论上一个刚性系统只要能抗一次超压也能抗一万次。只是一般军舰的结构强度达 ...

格乃森诺的象鼻山大家都知道吧

那个位置的装甲厚度 比一般的船要大不少 不还是垮了

少将

十二年服役纪念章杰出服役十字勋章终身荣誉会员

发表于 2011-8-23 08:43 | 显示全部楼层
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军士长

十二年服役纪念章

发表于 2011-8-23 09:12 | 显示全部楼层
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十二年服役纪念章一级铁十字勋章元老荣誉纪念章终身荣誉会员

发表于 2011-8-23 10:49 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 巴掌 于 2011-8-23 10:51 编辑
科京同志 发表于 2011-8-23 07:38
你这不是就瞎扯吗?  哪个军舰的刚度能够达到坦克一样的水平  对水下爆炸可以做到硬抗  不是一般军舰达不 ...


虽然所有军舰都无法做到完全硬抗,但是不同军舰硬抗的后果差别还是很大。军舰的结构性能与抗雷能力关系重大,研究军舰的抗雷能力必须首先研究军舰的结构,这甚至比研究TDS本身还重要。

沙恩被命中一枚重型鱼雷后,主装甲带并无严重变形,因为穹甲产生了对主装甲带下缘的横向支撑作用。而所有重点防护的军舰都没有这种支撑,所以吨位是沙恩两倍的大和并没有表现出明显强于沙恩的抗雷能力。理论上TDS很强的KGV、主教、维内托,实战都没有表现出应有的抗雷能力,都是吃了结构的亏。



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十二年服役纪念章旗手

 楼主| 发表于 2011-8-23 11:01 | 显示全部楼层
巴掌 发表于 2011-8-23 10:49
虽然所有军舰都无法做到完全硬抗,但是不同军舰硬抗的后果差别还是很大。军舰的结构性能与抗雷能力关系重 ...

沙恩中雷后的进水量和亚码头都是3000t级别
但是后续战斗力亚码头明显远强于沙恩啊

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十二年服役纪念章一级铁十字勋章元老荣誉纪念章终身荣誉会员

发表于 2011-8-23 11:02 | 显示全部楼层
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十二年服役纪念章一级铁十字勋章元老荣誉纪念章终身荣誉会员

发表于 2011-8-23 11:06 | 显示全部楼层
akagizuo 发表于 2011-8-23 11:01
沙恩中雷后的进水量和亚码头都是3000t级别
但是后续战斗力亚码头明显远强于沙恩啊 ...

按常理,亚码头那个吨位的表现应该比沙恩强得多才正常。

军士长

十二年服役纪念章

发表于 2011-8-23 11:23 | 显示全部楼层
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十二年服役纪念章一级铁十字勋章元老荣誉纪念章终身荣誉会员

发表于 2011-8-23 11:32 | 显示全部楼层
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十二年服役纪念章

发表于 2011-8-23 11:34 | 显示全部楼层
巴掌 发表于 2011-8-23 11:06
按常理,亚码头那个吨位的表现应该比沙恩强得多才正常。

The damages on Scharnhorst were severe. The turret and magazines was filled with smoke, gun crews were evacuated, and magazine flooding was ordered, but cancelled when no danger of fire was reported. The shell plating, which offered enough impact resistance to activate the warhead detonator, bore the brunt of the detonation, and a section 6 by 14 meters was destroyed. The explosion was deep enough so that a major portion of its energy was vented into the ship, where it tore the torpedo bulkhead from the armour deck and bent its top edge inboard 1,7 meters. That bulkhead was damaged from the level of the side armor to a platform above the shaft alley for 10 meters. Two transverse bulkheads, the battery deck and the first platform deck were damaged. The armor shelf and some adjacent structure were slightly damaged.
The torpedo struck at a point where the propeller shafts passed through the torpedo bulkhead, which had had to be knuckled to fit in place and accordingly had reduced ability to deflect elastically. Also, there was an inadequate connection of the torpedo bulkhead to the armor deck, and the structure was not continuous, so that stress flow could not transfer to adjoining structure. The bulkhead began to deflect elastically, as designed, but the upper end connection failed and permitted extensive flooding of inboard compartments. As a result of this damage, four of the 22 main watertight compartments had some flooding; 30 spaces in the area took on some 2.500 tons of water and 48 men perished. The Scharnhorst listed 3 degrees to starboard and was down 3 meters by the stern.
The propulsion plant was seriously affected by flooding and damage. The starboard shaft, which passed through the lower part of the underwater side-protection system abreast of turret Caesar, was destroyed, and the shaft alley began to flood immediately. A seaman was trapped there, and when another man opened a watertight door in a rescue attempt, the after engine room, which supplied power to the centerline shaft, began flooding so rapidly that it was impossible to properly secure the plant. One of the turbines, under maximum load, cooled so quickly that the housing came in contact with the turbine blades, and it had to be stopped. All steam connections were shut off in this space. With the starboard engine room also secured, the ship had only one shaft in operation.
Turret Caesar was out of action. Some compartments below the magazine were flooded, and electrical and other equipment in the magazine was damaged. Some cartridges and a few powder cases burned; many were damaged. The cartridge magazine contained 283 projectiles and cartridges combined, ready to be fed to the turret above. Other projectiles, without cartridges, were on a loading platform a few meters from the impact area.
The starboard after 150 mm twin turret was put out of action by flooding of subturret compartments and damage to the electrical system. The fire-control system for the after group of 105 mm guns was damaged.
The ship was limited to a maximum speed of 20 knots en route to Trondheim. Collision mats were rigged in an attempt to prevent further structural damage, but could not be secured, and the attempt was abandoned.
拍哥这话说的就太没品了  大和表现没有沙恩霍斯特强?
一条鱼雷 右舷轮机直接停车 中间的因为救人进水 也停车 C炮塔弹药库起小火后被扑灭 22个主隔舱4个进水 死了48个哥们   这能跟大和挨一条鱼雷一个效果? 大和没死人,动力完好无损
坚固的装甲列板对限制损失范围有帮助,谁也没意见  而且
大和的损失事例里,装甲板也起到了限制损伤范围的作用
你这沙恩霍斯特水下防御效果和大和没有明显差距,这实在太脑补了  你这偏执得改改了

军士长

十二年服役纪念章

发表于 2011-8-23 11:58 | 显示全部楼层
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十二年服役纪念章一级铁十字勋章元老荣誉纪念章终身荣誉会员

发表于 2011-8-23 12:05 | 显示全部楼层
科京同志 发表于 2011-8-23 11:34
The damages on Scharnhorst were severe. The turret and magazines was filled with smoke, gun crews  ...

两舰当然没有明显差距。沙恩的损失和运气与损管失误有关,弹药库冒烟但是没有火灾危险,德国人却下令开闸放水之后又取消,导致弹药库进水。然后是为救人导致中央轮机室进水。这样才导致了一共进水2500吨。

鱼雷直接命中沙恩的右传动轴处,右轮机舱当然停机。某次打击死了几个人也和运气有关,不足以作为评估军舰防护能力的依据。否则,大和同样有运气比沙恩差的时候,沙恩被命中15条鱼雷沉没,大和被命中11条鱼雷就沉没,如果不考虑随机因素,岂不说明沙恩比大和耐打?

要验证我的说法,最好拿沙恩、俾斯麦和吨位相近的KGV、主教、维内托做对比,哪个的结构更适合抗雷一目了然。

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十二年服役纪念章

发表于 2011-8-23 12:16 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 科京同志 于 2011-8-23 12:17 编辑
巴掌 发表于 2011-8-23 12:05
两舰当然没有明显差距。沙恩的损失和运气与损管失误有关,弹药库冒烟但是没有火灾危险,德国人却下令开闸 ...


又开始瞎扯了  沉没前击中的全部鱼雷  达到不可挽回伤势的鱼雷   是一回事吗?  武藏呢

翔鹤 瑞鹤 两挨的鱼雷不一样多 都沉了 能证明两个的水下防御水平不一样吗?  

在最后的鱼雷攻击开始前3分钟,沙恩霍斯特已经开始弃舰了

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十二年服役纪念章

发表于 2011-8-23 12:18 | 显示全部楼层
巴掌 发表于 2011-8-23 12:05
两舰当然没有明显差距。沙恩的损失和运气与损管失误有关,弹药库冒烟但是没有火灾危险,德国人却下令开闸 ...

你这倾向性暴露的太明显了  德国人的都是运气不好 没办法

不说了

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十二年服役纪念章

发表于 2011-8-23 12:20 | 显示全部楼层
巴掌 发表于 2011-8-23 12:05
两舰当然没有明显差距。沙恩的损失和运气与损管失误有关,弹药库冒烟但是没有火灾危险,德国人却下令开闸 ...

沙恩霍斯特的15条鱼雷 能请教一下吗?

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十二年服役纪念章一级铁十字勋章元老荣誉纪念章终身荣誉会员

发表于 2011-8-23 12:31 | 显示全部楼层
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